the [drawn-out time] the music died

pete yornAll of the best music seems to be dissolving around me. Pete Yorn has completed his musical trilogy with Nightcrawler (which follows musicforthemorningafter and Day I Forgot). He has announced that he is going to move on to new things, but not much is certain at this point. Looking back, Creeper Lagoon lost one of its key members, Ian Sefchick, a year or so ago, and their last CD wasn’t picked up by a major label. They’ve even talked of changing their name, and they’re certainly changing their sound. I’m not sure where they stand now, but it would’ve been much better to see Ian stay on board.

the original creeper, from

nickel creek, by danny clinchAnd looking ahead, the trio of Nickel Creek has announced that they will be going on hiatus at the end of 2007 for an indefinite period of “having real lives.” They each want to move on to different things; I’m inclined to place most of the blame for this on Chris Thile, since I always had the feeling that he was pulling them in a different direction. His new band is “wilder” and lacks the powerful vocals prevalent in his earlier works. The biggest shame is that NC’s last CD was their best yet, and none of the members of Nickel Creek has done nearly as well independently as he or she has with the trio. Let’s hope that doesn’t continue to be the case.

At least Coldplay’s last CD was still good…and Sufjan Stevens still has 48 records to release before reaching his goal of one CD for every state.

23 thoughts on “the [drawn-out time] the music died

  1. Which levels are those, pray tell.

  2. i wish i had the willpower to not reply to such a lack of intelligent thought, but alas, i’m weak.

    you have no idea what it would take to fix the “tab issue.” it’s the design of the template and it could be a “problem” with any one of several very long files. even if i knew the file, i’d only be guessing at what to do to change the tabbing preference. but if you aren’t using a mouse, you’re not welcome at my site anyway. so i don’t really care about your petty problems.

    as for the ignorance in your original comment:

    1) folk music is not “dead.” there are 11.269 hours of blues/folk music listed on urge (9,933 of hip-hop, if you were wondering).
    2) hip-hop is in no way a revolutionary development. in fact, it focuses on cruder, more raw emotion (sex without love, violence and hate) than does folk music.
    3) hip-hop music is, in itself, ignorant. there is no deeper understanding of…anything conveyed. its usual motivations include anger, horniness, and materialism.
    4) by transitioning from nick drake to hip-hop yourself, your intelligence drops dozens of points.
    5) it’s ignorant to assume that i would ever replace my interest in music with an interest in hip-hop.

  3. i don’t make black music
    i don’t make white music
    i make fight music
    for high school kids

    i have a new house or a new car
    couple of years ago i was more poorer than you are
    i don’t got that bad of a mouth do i?
    fuck shit ass bitch cunt shoobidydowah

    skibbidy beebop christopher reeves
    sonny bono, skis, horses and hittin some trees
    how many retards’ll listen to me..

  4. (1) wtf is urge? just because there is more music listed, that doesn’t mean shit. its undeniable that “folk” music has been around a lot longer than hip-hop. therefore, its arguable that hip-hop is much more popular than folk, because it has, in a short time, accumulated nearly as many hours on “urge.” finally, this argument is an appeal to the people, which (as you probably don’t know) is a fallacy. a lot of people watch gilmore girls. does that mean it isnt a retarded show? of course not. now, im not saying that folk music is bad, but just because there are “x” hours of it on “urge” –that, quite frankly, means dick. (oh, yeah, also: you said, “blue/folk” … im willing to bet there is much more blues in that category than folk…)
    (2) does this argument even make sense? short answer: no. long answer: again, folk has been around longer than hip-hop. that is undeniable. by your own admission, you just said that hip-hop deals with themes that folk doesnt. how is that not revolutionary? changing the themes (that music deals with) is the very definition of revolutionary. talk to anybody who has studied contemporary music, and whether they like it or not, they will admit that hip-hop has drastically affected the current themes and tones of music. anyway, what’s wrong with expressing “raw emotion”? do we all have to sit around crying about finding people more like you or wondering why the fire died? i sure fucking hope not.
    (3) you basically repeat yourself here, saying what amounts to the same thing you said at the end of (2). so, again, what’s wrong with hip-hop artists expressing something straightfoward? this also implies that folk music is expressing some deep, complex message… something like “it was there if you ever wanted it, but you closed the door and said goodbye for good” is, i hate to say it, a pretty simple, easily understood statement. oh but the EMOTION.
    on a side note, you link three things to hip-hop: angre, horniness and materialism. let’s take materialism, for example. how many posts have you had on this site about windows vista? the zune? your new “inspy” ? maybe you have more in common with the holy trinity of hip-hop than you thought.
    (4) this is so fucking stupid its not even worth formulating a counter argument.
    (5) god forbid.

  5. so provocative…1) was this intended to be a scientific or official argument? i wasn’t even intending on comparing the two numbers – the intent was to show the continued popularity of folk, but good job skewing it. and yes, it’s been around longer, but it would be far more difficult to attain numbers of recently-released material. hip-hop’s newfound popularity hardly proves that there’s anything not-ignorant about it.

    2) only the shallowest individual would intend to spend “all his time” sitting around thinking about slappin’ his hoes or robbing liquor stores. dealing with different themes doesn’t make it a revolution – if anything, going from something more advanced to something more primitive is devolving. revolution carries the connotation of a change toward something more advanced or improved…few countries have had revolutions in hopes of being worse off than they were when they started. you’d be hard-pressed to suggest that the repetitive drum beats and lyrics like “Won’t you come over and check up on it, I’ma let you work up on it” are “revolutionary” compared to the poetic lyrics of someone like bob dylan, drug-induced or not.

    3) oh, take a lyric from the lyrics page and assume that i found it to be something sophisticated or eloquent and not simply a reflection to which i could currently relate. again, what is the artistic merit in expressing something so primitive? i could write a song about taking a crap too. now that would be revolutionary.

    on a side note, i would never create anything celebrating my materialism. you see, writing about something on a website is quite different from praising it in an artistic medium in order to sell it to sony.

    4) insightful. i suppose since we’re all scientific now, we should take the IQs of the average nick drake listener and compare them to that of the average jay-z listener. would that be conclusive enough?

    5) i’m missing so much.

  6. 1) Get out of your shell once in a while, scooter.
    2) Learn to detect sarcasm.
    3) Music is shearly for entertainment. Just like MMO’s are entertaining for ogre and i, FPS’s are your thing.
    4) This argument is trivial at best. All stemmed from a reference to a hip-hop artist’s skit about his own job. In which he pretty much implies everything that has been said in this page in far less words.
    5) Fix the goddamned tab issue.

  7. Also, more adherent to the argument:
    1) Well following the current trend, we see that folk IS dying and hip-hop IS the wave of the future. And now you have (for the first of a few times) gone back on your original argument and called hip-hop ignorant, which although, it may very well be, does not make the hypothesis that it will be a big deal in the future is not ignorant.
    2) People’s lifestyles are not usually influenced by personality, but vice-versa. People are rarely given the opportunity to define the situations that they are going to be put in, but can affect the outcome of these situations. To say that a person is shallow and primitive is ignorant on your part, because half of the beauty in the art or rap or hip-hop that comes from the difficult situations people have overcome, and the often times perverse solutions that helped them escape from their hardships.

    You are arguing art. Just like rock and roll was revolutionary in the day, hip-hop has also been revolutionary in its own way. Picasso. You’re arguing something that doesnt have to be substantiated: peoples’ opinions. Just like you assume that you’re right about everything, I assume you’re always wrong about everything. It’s the ebb and flow of society. A system of checks and balances. As Bob Dylan said “The times, they are a-changing.”
    4) Haha, You originally said that listening to hip-hop made you lose intelligent. And now your argument changed to that the average listener just happens to be less intelligent. Just because the group you associate with change, doesnt change your personal attributes. This is an argumentative fallacy on many levels. But even to go back to the statement that it’s “the wave of the future”: The majority of the world is going to be less educated that anyone who reads this website, however, that means that a majority of the world is going to have to agree on something to make it a “wave” of the future. Invariably, popular culture will be made up of vastly an ignorant and uneducated majority. So to say that obscure artists are anything more that just that, is erroneous by definition.

  8. okay see you make a mistake in comparing beyonce and bob dylan. see, this whole argument is about CONTEMPORARY music. no one is saying that folk music was never important. we are saying it was on the decline. please note that in your original post you made no mention of bob dylan, rather of contemporary “folk” artists.
    the point here is that bob dylan was doing his thing when it was still relevant. when it was still new. now-a-days people like nickel creek are just sucking ass and beating a dead horse. no one with any sense at all will say that nickel creek is doing a better job at it than bob dylan. yet they persist! (or, apparently, dont). but why should they? they are just doing a piss-poor job at something that other people already mastered. and contemporary music has MOVED ON. thats why hip-hop, like it or not, is more relevant than the DYING folk industry.

  9. OK, first of all, Nickel Creek hardly sucks ass.

    To Trey:

    1) Yes, that’s true, but perhaps in saying “that’s ignorant on so many levels” I wasn’t just talking about your “wave of the future” comment, but about hip-hop in general.

    2) wtf. I don’t see any relevance in your first couple of sentences, but “To say that a person is shallow and primitive is ignorant on your part, because half of the beauty in the art or rap or hip-hop that comes from the difficult situations people have overcome” is total BS. Please, indicate the beauty in “overcoming” to reach the height of your popularity with lyrics such as “till sweat drop down my balls.” I’d love to hear an intelligent argument justifying that as “beautiful” and anything but crude and primitive. People can come from poor roots to create things of actual beauty, but beauty this is not.

    3) Picasso vs. hip-hop? Oh please… You’re right though, I won’t argue opinions; I’ll concede that hip-hop is gaining in popularity and folk is waning, but that’s because people, as a whole, are very stupid. And it’s hip-hop that’s reflective of collective ignorance – not dismissing it as crap.

    4) Hip-hop does make you “lose intelligent.” Too bad there aren’t any studies to back me up, so I’ll just assume I’m right.

    To Daniel:

    You would still argue the merits of Beyonce versus, for example, Nickel Creek? She can dance better than them, but her instrumental and lyrical abilities aren’t exactly in the same ballpark. More popular, sure, but I’m talking about hip-hop as ignorance here, and I don’t care about popularity.

    Hip-hop – more relevant, perhaps. More disturbingly stupid and full of crap, definitely.

    I’ll await a defense of “till sweat drop down my balls.”

  10. Oh, and I will say that I listen to this crap on occasion because it’s funny sometimes, but aside from this discussion I would never compare it to a band like Nickel Creek. Just like I would never compare Jackass to Schindler’s List.

    There’s a place for hip-hop, but it is stupid (though entertaining) and it’s alarming when it becomes more revered than the work of those who actually compose songs dealing with substantial matters.

  11. yee haw! can i get an AMEN?! how about we get some more slowly-shifting-of-defintions/opinions/arguments to counter the tide of criticism? i’m sure there’s more to come.
    par example:
    Comment on October 5th, 2006
    “1) folk music is not “dead.” there are 11.269 hours of blues/folk music listed on urge (9,933 of hip-hop, if you were wondering).”
    Comment on October 6th, 2006.
    “More popular, sure, but I’m talking about hip-hop as ignorance here, and I don’t care about popularity.”
    Boy, this just keeps getting better and better. How about this twisting of words?
    Comment on October 5th, 2006.
    “you’d be hard-pressed to suggest that the repetitive drum beats and lyrics like “Won’t you come over and check up on it, I’ma let you work up on it” are “revolutionary” compared to the poetic lyrics of someone like bob dylan, drug-induced or not.”
    Comment on October 6th, 2006.
    “okay see you make a mistake in comparing beyonce and bob dylan.”
    Comment on October 6th, 2006.
    “You would still argue the merits of Beyonce versus, for example, Nickel Creek?”
    Let’s review: (1) You make a poor analogy involving Bob Dylan and Beyonce Knowles. (2) I point out that it is a poor analogy and explain why. (3) You take this as some sort of argument in favor of Beyonce. …how are you coming to these conclusions?
    Also: your first counter-post listed five things.
    – You have basically conceded the first two (“folk is waning [in popularity]” and “Hip-hop – more relevant, perhaps.”).
    – The fourth seems, on its face, clearly untrue and is completely unsupported (sorry, but your own assumption that you’re correct doesn’t count).
    – The fifth is irrelevant because none of us have said at any time that we are trying to convince you to like hip-hop (at best, to “get out of your shell”). Perhaps we merely wish you to recognize that a lot of the opinions you hold about it are apparently (and by your own admission) wrong.
    – This leaves us with the third. It’s worth noting that you started out by calling hip-hop ignorant and later sort of shifted this to mean crude, but whatever.
    Now, before you go all ape-shit and say “No, I called it crude in the second part!” — shut the fuck up.
    Here is essentially what you said: (2) Hip hop is not relevant because it is crude. (3) Hip hop is ignorant because it is crude.
    Part 2 taken in such a sense is clearly wrong, because you can review history and find that, without a doubt, revolutionary and crude are NOT mutually exclusive. This is why I tie your whole “crude” concept into part 3.
    You present some interesting arguments to the point that hip-hop is crude (such as lyrics (til swea drops down my balls, etc).
    The problems with this are, as Trey already suggested, problems of subjectivity. No two people (except perhaps legal or linguistic scholars) will agree on exactly what defines something to be crude. Perhaps when someone hears a mopey, tired-ass song about longing for a lost love… they feel, understandably, like cutting their wrists. However when they hear an admittedly crude song about having fun dancing in a club, followed by sex — maybe they enjoy it. Maybe they enjoy it because it has loud, strange synthesized noises rather than a restless guitar, or because it has insanely unnecessary bass beats rather than a whiny singer. The point is, they enjoy it more… so, to them, it is better. Now… does that make it quantitatively better? Well, the question isn’t even a valid question, because better, in this sense, is purely subjective. And the best part about that last sentence is that no matter what you say YOU CAN NEVER PROVE ME WRONG. Beauty is subjective, end of story. Sorry, Scott.
    On a side note, perhaps another reason they enjoy music about ass and tits and sweaty balls is because it reminds them of sex — where as depressing music about losing their one true love reminds them of… depressing things. Which people usually tend to avoid. Perhaps, Scott, you too should try crazy, raunchy, ball-sweaty sex… and then you could truly judge Lil Jon and the Eastside Boyz.
    Oh, I forgot. No sex before marriage. Except oral, cause that doesn’t count, right? 😉

  12. This is ridiculous. What the hell are you even arguing anymore? By finding inconsistencies in my posts, you’re attempting to pass hip-hop off for so much more than it really is.

    Yeah, you’re right – comparing Beyonce to Dylan is a poor analogy, since he’s not contemporary. It hardly reinforces my argument that hip-hop is bred from ignorance.

    OK, so people can enjoy hip-hop. So? Did I ever say they couldn’t?

    But oh no, he’s closed with an ad hominem fallacy in his argument! Suddenly “till sweat drop down my balls” is something that should be treasured for its contribution to mankind!

    Anyway, congratulations. Through all that incoherent superfluousness, you’ve somehow managed to defend lyrics like “How you ain’t gon’ FUCK! Bitch I’m me?” at least to yourself. Yes, beauty is subjective…but honestly, if you find beauty in that, then screw the rest of this argument. I’m done here.

  13. Let us all just remember that after this argument is over. We will all retain the same opinions as we had before. We are all stubborn, and very set in these beliefs.


    The original post was about how all the “best music” was dissolving around you. This is fine, because your favorite music is Folk music (an opinion which noone has any place to deny you.)

    Next, I made a comic reference to a hip-hop artist commenting on his own style and why he had changed it.

    Then, the insults come. Maybe from lack of understanding. But moreso from ignorance, and self-righteousness. Perhaps from fear? (Noone is too interested to ask why you started the insults. Point is, you did. And apparently offended more than just me.)

    And so. You procede to defend your insult with poorly thought out reasons. Most of which are immediately called out by Daniel.

    You reply to this with your usual sense of sarcasm, and dismiss everything he said with more of your logical fallacies, such as saying that if there were studies into such things, THIS WOULD BE THE OUTCOME, and attacking the subject using something other than what you are arguing, further offending me by attacking me, instead of the argument, and finally by stating a statement to further commit yourself to ignorance and build yourself into a box

    brief comic interum from waldo

    A bit later you reply to daniels counter-points with such things as in item 1; you argue that this is not a scientific argument. whereas in 4, you decide that it will be admittable to allow yourself to argue with more of your if-this-was-a-study-it-would-turn-out-this-way studies (which is … a form of science.)

    Then i come back again, and give a post telling everyone that my original statement was just a joke, taken from a musician himself and altered to fit this subject. I say that this argument is bullshit, and has no point. And we all continue to fight about it. Also, fix the fucking tab thing.

    Daniel further points out the inconsistencies in your arguments.

    This is where we have a bit of mutual agreement on something, and you admit that this is all just a fight in opinions, which is pointless. (I still think that many people enjoy hip-hop and rap because they can more easily relate to such things as lusting over women, doing drugs, getting fucked up, having a good time, etc, than falling in love and wanting to make someone else happy. Even if a person can relate to such a thing [taking myself for example], I find such thoughts to be burdensome at times and find rap music to be a time to release and temporarily resort back to selfish thoughts and relax). And then you take your defense of your argument to having us try to come up with a defense of some lyrics in hip-hop songs. I am sure we could find a lot of folk lyrics that are just as full of bullshit and pointless in nature. But your next sub-post reports your opinions even further so much as to make them statements, calling rap music stupid. I would love to see you take a rapper’s job, and if you could, you should. They make far more money than dentists do.

    Daniel procedes to find more indescrepencies in your argument, which is fine. But I think that its a little overboard to make personal attacks on you. So it makes his argument lose a little of its credibility.

    And here we are at the end of this thread, all of our original gusto waning. Scott gives up. Taking his resentment, and leaving us laughing at times. I, for one, and just wanting you to realize that there are other people in this world, and their entire lives, they dont have one day that is half as good as your best. And through this hardship has come a form of entertainment in which these people can all find release. The lyrics do not have to make sense, just as in my folk songs there are no lyrics. Music is about rhythm. Poetry is about words. Rap produces the same quality of music as any other genre. I will agree with you that folk music’s lyrics are generally far more poetic to the text-book definition romantic, but there are quite a few rap songs which have very powerful messages and convey them with a very personal diction and viewpoint.

    I guess this can be my last post here, since there’s no point in beating a dead horse.


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